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Forum Discussion (CSDBR)


28 March - 1 April 2006 - CS Dog Book Review
Discussion with Dr Tom Lonsdale
www.groups.yahoo.com/group/CSDogBookReview



Q & A Part 1
Questions 1 to 4
Q & A Part 2
Questions 5 to 10
Q & A Part 3
Questions 11 to 17
Q & A Part 4
Questions 18 to 22

Date: Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:57 am
Subject: Please Welcome Tom Lonsdale!

Hi All!

I just checked and I do see that Tom has joined the list. I'm not sure how much of the earlier discussions today he's seen so until otherwise stated we'll assume he hasn't.

It's almost midnight here on the west coast so elsewhere it's already Tuesday. Hence the 'early' welcome on my part. ;^)

Many of you have joined recently just to 'hear' what Tom has to say but hopefully also to ask questions! Now is the time to get them started.

There should also be poll results posted from the early questions about what you all are feeding - if you haven't voted, please do so before it closes!

Welcome Tom!!



From: Tom Lonsdale
Date: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:55 pm
Subject: Re: [CSDogBookReview] Please Welcome Tom Lonsdale!

Hi .... and All,

Thanks for inviting me to the list. It's good to be here and to meet you all.

I noticed discussions started a few days ago. But to be honest, I have not had chance to look closely. So, yes, please assume I haven't seen the chat.

I did see the poll results and congratulate you on establishing the survey and demonstrating your strong beliefs that raw is the way to go.

>CHOICES AND RESULTS
>- Do it, 54 votes, 72.97%
>- Thinking about it, 14 votes, 18.92%
>- No way! Too dangerous!, 6 votes, 8.11%

You are many things, but definitely not representative of the wider community. And that to me seems to be our task -- to bring the benefits of a more natural diet to the wider community. How we do that? and Who does that? are big questions needing answers.

So let's get started on our discussions.

Best wishes,

Tom Lonsdale
--------------------------------------------------------
From: Tom Lonsdale
Date: Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:17 am
Subject: Frame of reference

Hi list members,

The day gets under way here in Australia. Doves are cooing in the garden and all is well.

Prior to our discussions I thought to jot a few preliminary thoughts.

At this point in our history of feeding pets there is a stirring amongst people. Many are coming to the view that things aren't well with the way we've been conditioned to think about pets and how we've been conditioned to feed them. Whatever we discuss or think about is dependent on the culture that we inhabit. In respect to pets that culture is largely created and maintained by the junk pet food/veterinary/faux animal welfare alliance. As a society, we tend to see things from the alliance's perspective using concepts and words of their creation.

How then to move out of the old mode of thinking and into the new?

Ideally we would start by emptying our minds of the old misinformation, by unlearning the distorted concepts and seeing things from a new perspective. It's something that requires a lot of effort and is never easy to accomplish, even a little bit.

Ideally we would instantly perceive a new frame of reference within which things operate.

The junk pet food/vet/animal welfare alliance sold us the notion that pets are barely any different from animated, furry toys, their daily maintenance needs can be met from the packets on the supermarket shelf and for running repairs consult the repair man (vet). The faux animal welfare groups persuade us that they provide a safety net when the above system malfunctions.

When it comes to feeding pets the alliance wants us to focus on the dog's bowl and what the alliance deems is appropriate to put in it. They don't want us to think freely and broadly. They want that narrow and limited focus.

Sadly, and I suspect conditioned by the alliance, the discussions about feeding raw food again tends to focus on the pet's bowl. My belief is that we need to raise our perspective and see things within a broad framework that I refer to as the Five Facets of the Pet Food Fraud.

* Cruelty, ill health and suffering of pets 10%
* Misused and abused 'science' 20%
* Blocking of significant scientific breakthroughs 30%
* Economic, human health and natural environmental consequences 20%
* Failure of the democratic, administrative and legal systems to deal with a cashed-up cabal 20%

The figures are my idea of the relative significance of each component. The first item I give 10% to and is comprised 5% the diseases pets suffer as a result of their diet and 5% knowledge and understanding of an appropriate diet. The score is low, not because these things are unimportant, but because they are relatively easy to understand and to fix.

Let's see if we can break free of the junk pet-food shackles become empowered and in turn empower the rest of society. We are the pioneers in new territory and have a terrific opportunity to do things well.

Best wishes,

Tom Lonsdale



Question 1
Subject: Re: Please Welcome Tom Lonsdale!

Hi Tom,

I'm so glad you've agreed to be a guest here. I was one of the people at Carsegray, Scotland a few years ago when you were the guestspeaker at Catherine's Foundation in Canine Healthcare.

I suppose like a lot of people the thought of feeding raw was quite alien to me, especially since I'd been feeding my dogs on table scraps as they did in the days before the petfood industry became the norm, but your book "Raw Meaty Bones" and the talk you gave convinced me 100% on the logic of feeding dogs raw, and I must admit I haven't looked back. I do have one dog that won't touch it, so he continues to have his table-scrap meals, but he's ok healthwise so I'm not too bothered.

Now, my question is, I get a lot of raw meaty bones from my butcher and I get a whole wide variety of different bones, and usually there's a pig's foot/leg in the bag. I find that the two dogs never ever touch it straight away, leaving it for days, and then eventually it disappears. I'm never sure whether one of the dogs has eaten it, buried it, or whether some other animal has come in to the yard and taken it. So, is it ok for dogs to be given it to eat/chew?



From: Tom Lonsdale
Subject: Re: [CSDogBookReview] Please Welcome Tom Lonsdale!

Hi ....,

Many thanks for this first question and good to meet again. How's things. I remember you talking about your website.

Thanks for reminding me about that fabulous weekend in Scotland enjoying Catherine and Rob's hospitality and talking about things important to the welfare of animals and the wider community. Do you remember the walks through the walled gardens picking wild raspberries and then returning for scrumptious good food?

Your question: What about pig's trotters? As a staple of a dog's diet trotters don't offer much meat being mostly skin and bone. Even so dog's do tend to be able to chew their way through the relatively soft bone so can derive a fair amount of nourishment.

Sounds like your dogs have the right idea. Gnaw on the trotters when there's nothing else much going on.

You mention that one dog does well on table scraps. Yes, it's true that lots of dogs do well or appear to do well.

In fact you will find that the dog's compensatory mechanisms are being asked to work harder than is necessary. The liver, kidneys, heart, immune system will all be doing more work and will therefore in the long term suffer.

Better to try to make the switch if you can. There's advice in Work Wonders Chapter 4 page 43 (Click on the book icon at www.rawmeatybones.com )

Best wishes,

Tom



Question 2
List member asked for details of studies undertaken into the feeding of a Raw Meaty Bone diet.

From:Tom Lonsdale
Subject: Re: [CSDogBookReview] Studies

Hi ....,

You pose a mighty big question about 'what actual studies have been done'.

Even within an appropriate paradigm there's wide differences in the quality of studies. And as we know the current paradigm of veterinary research is variously and jointly misdirected, incompetent and corrupt. It's more about a marketing exercise for junk food designed to bolster the false claims and to denigrate Nature -- extraordinary but true.

But there are so many twists to this story and again it makes it difficult for folks to follow. Barf (vomit) diet is as its name suggests a revolting mess and this mess offers a soft target to the junk cooked pet food interests who want to trash raw food and flush it down the metaphorical toilet.

The folks at the rawfeeding list often talk about lists of studies, and at second chance ranch site http://www.secondchanceranch.org/ I believe you can find lists of studies purportedly against raw food. At the rawvet list recently there was a posting on a list of studies into bacterial contamination.
-----------------------------------
Sadly, though, I don't think this is of much help.

The main thing is that junk food is the new fad (since the 1860s). And with new fads they have at least a moral obligation and I suspect probably legal obligations to conduct comparison feeding trials of their fad food against the natural standard. Failure to do that to my mind constitutes a serious violation.

Currently thousands of tons of junk food are sold as being superior fare but without a shred of comparative evidence to back up those claims. If and when we interest lawyers in these false claims we should make some headway.
------------------------------------------

Set against that backdrop there is the likely aspect that the junk pet food companies have done the research inhouse and are aghast at just how badly their products compare with the natural standard. When we have legal actions we shall be able to engage in what's known as 'discovery' where the junk food producers will need to provide the evidence for their claims. Same goes for the junk raw food producers too.
-------------------------------------------

When a high ranking vet professor wanted to do a food comparison trial using colony beagles he was blocked. His research would have been almost cost free. Colony beagles need to be fed anyhow.
------------------------------------------

As mentioned research needs to take place within a paradigm. If you asked a barber surgeon to research the benefits of autoclave sterilisation of surgical instruments he would come up with garbage results -- his mind set would likely only allow that.
-------------------------------------------

Notwithstanding the above mentioned, science does not proceed in regular steps using neatly packaged information. Information needs to be harvested from many sources and then interpreted. If you get hold of a copy of Raw Meaty Bones you can find lots of research evidence gleaned from the vet, medical, dental and other literature. Raw Meaty Bones itself has been peer reviewed and nominated for a prestigious vet award. So there is plenty of existing evidence, whether published in peer reviewed journals or otherwise that confirms the value of nature's teaching and confirms the trickery of the commercial interests.

Best wishes

Tom



QUESTION 3
Subject: Part raw and part kibble

Hi Dr. Tom, welcome! I have been so looking forward to your visit!

I feed kibble to my dog, and some RMB and raw meat. I hope to eventually be able to feed mostly raw, but dont have freezer space yet.

Do i need to withhold the grain-based kibble on the days she gets raw? My concern is that the grain will slow down the digestion of the raw, which might allow time for harmful bacteria on the raw to multiply in her digestive system - is this a valid concern?

thanks,


From: Tom Lonsdale
Subject: Re: [CSDogBookReview] Part raw and part kibble

Hi ....,

Thanks for the enquiry.

Good that you are planning the switch. For sure there are practical issues and you need to address those.

In the meantime I would suggest feeding raw meaty bones in large pieces as often as you can. It will tend to offset the damage done by the kibble.

There are lots of hypothetical aspects to how an individual dog's intestines might react to any or all of a zillion different factors when mixing cooked and raw food. My advice is not to worry unduly about that but concentrate on making the switch.

Best wishes,

Tom



Question 4
Subject: [CSDogBookReview] Questions for Tom

Welcome!

I have just recently started supplementing my dogs kibble (Chicken Soup for the Dog Lovers Soul) with raw bones, so I have lots of questions.

1. I've been using turkey necks, chicken backs and beef necks, but I'm cautious about trying pork necks. Is there any reason for concern? They are the easiest to find and a heck of a lot cheaper than beef necks, which is everybody's favorite. (Mine too - it keeps them busy for a full hour. :} The turkey and chicken are gone in 5 minutes.)

2. Would it be best to purposely rotate the type of bone I give them on a daily basis?

3. I'm not ready to switch over to all raw, but went from a bone a week to every day in the last week. They are all 45-50 pounds, and usually get 1-1/2 cups of kibble a day. Since they started getting a bone, I reduced the kibble to half portion. Does that sound about right?

4. I freeze the bones, and let them defrost for about 1/2 hour before I feed them. This makes them last longer and requires more strenuous chewing, but should I worry about them being too hard and breaking teeth?

5. And on the subject of teeth... I originally started feeding the turkey necks specifically because one of my girls has problems with gingivitis. The neck bones really seem to help keep her teeth clean and her gums healthy. I have heard that marrow bones are too hard and can break a dog's teeth. Is this a worry, or should I be including marrow bones in their diet?

Probably more questions to follow... :}



From: Tom Lonsdale
Subject: Re: [CSDogBookReview] Questions for Tom

Hi .... and all,

Thanks for the welcome and your questions.

At 03:26 AM 29/03/2006, you wrote:
Welcome!

I have just recently started supplementing my dogs kibble (Chicken Soup for the Dog Lovers Soul) with raw bones, so I have lots of questions.


Sorry, I haven't read the book you mention. Have you read Work Wonders?

1. I've been using turkey necks, chicken backs and beef necks, but I'm cautious about trying pork necks. Is there any reason for concern? They are the easiest to find and a heck of a lot cheaper than beef necks, which is everybody's favorite. (Mine too - it keeps them busy for a full hour. :} The turkey and chicken are gone in 5 minutes.)

Pork neck bones are a useful part of a diet, cheap and available too.

2. Would it be best to purposely rotate the type of bone I give them on a daily basis?

No need to worry overly about rotating on a daily basis. Work Wonders has the expanded info and there's a quick menu on pages 100 - 101

3. I'm not ready to switch over to all raw, but went from a bone a week to every day in the last week. They are all 45-50 pounds, and usually get 1-1/2 cups of kibble a day. Since they started getting a bone, I reduced the kibble to half portion. Does that sound about right?

My advice is to avoid the kibble. But if there are reasons why that's not practical then reducing the amount fed to allow for the intake of natural food sounds right.

4. I freeze the bones, and let them defrost for about 1/2 hour before I feed them. This makes them last longer and requires more strenuous chewing, but should I worry about them being too hard and breaking teeth?

Dogs seem to work out how to deal with frozen bones. Some they eat straight away others they leave until more thawed.

Large marrow bones are unsuitable whether fresh or frozen.

5. And on the subject of teeth... I originally started feeding the turkey necks specifically because one of my girls has problems with gingivitis. The neck bones really seem to help keep her teeth clean and her gums healthy. I have heard that marrow bones are too hard and can break a dog's teeth. Is this a worry, or should I be including marrow bones in their diet?

Raw meaty bones or better still the whole carcasses of other animals covered in tough hide are what's needed to clean teeth and massage gums. Marrow bones don't do this but do pose a risk of breaking teeth.

Best wishes,

Tom


Subject: Re: [CSDogBookReview] Questions for Tom

In a message dated 3/28/2006 8:16:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
tom@... writes:

>I have just recently started supplementing my dogs kibble (Chicken Soup for the Dog Lovers Soul) with raw bones, so I have lots of >questions.

**Sorry, I haven't read the book you mention. Have you read Work Wonders?**

I wasn't referring to the book, it's the name of the food. :} I haven't read your book yet, but it's on my list. (Not in the budget this month, unfortunately!)

Thank you for your answers!


From: Tom Lonsdale
Subject: Re: [CSDogBookReview] Questions for Tom

Hi ....,

Sorry, I misunderstood. Somehow I thought a book called 'Chicken soup. . .' had recommended raw bones with kibble.

Work Wonders can be read/downloaded free online. Just go to www.rawmeatybones.com and click on the Work Wonders cover image.

Best wishes,

Tom

Q & A Part 1
Questions 1 to 4
Q & A Part 2
Questions 5 to 10
Q & A Part 3
Questions 11 to 17
Q & A Part 4
Questions 18 to 22


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