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Dr Lonsdale (3 Voer Natuurlijk)
Question 10
Dear Mr. Lonsdale,
1.
Is it safe to put a dog on raw meat diet when it is sovering with Leishmaniasis disease: the dog has severe kidney and liver problems right now and can not eat anything. He is going through chemotherapy on Glucotamine injections which is very bad for those organs. I asked this question already on this board, but I would like to hear your point of view on this. Should you prefer the real RMB or the grinded one (commercial)?
2.
In your books you state out that a little bit of vegetables is no problem. My dogs do get some vegetables (10%/15%) which I believe could have an extra function for anti-oxydants and mineral/vitamines besides the function as natural fiber source. What's your clear opinion about using vegetables into the diet?
3.
Eleptical dogs in general:
is it safe to put those dogs on fasten days while they are on medicine? What about changing blood sugar levels etc. when feeding at different times and let fasten those dogs?
MOD: a similar question is asked
http://www.voernatuurlijk.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5134 ***
***The similar question was:
Hello DR.,
how do you think about one day not eating (is it fasting in English?) for a dog with epileptic seizures?
Thank you
4.
Skin and fur of wild rabbits/hares:
Is it sensible to freeze those animals before giving?
The same for the tripe/fish like salmon.
Thank you so much for making time to answer those questions.
I am an enthousiastic raw feeder myself and I am very glad trying to feed like your vision. Thanks so much for coming to The Netherlands.
Greets,
* Tom Lonsdale answered, 28 Jun, 2006:
Hi all,
Quote:
Dear Mr. Lonsdale,
1.
Is it safe to put a dog on raw meat diet when it is sovering with Leishmaniasis disease: the dog has severe kidney and liver problems right now and can not eat anything. He is going through chemotherapy on Glucotamine injections which is very bad for those organs. I asked this question already on this board, but I would like to hear your point of view on this. Should you prefer the real RMB or the grinded one (commercial)?
Sorry, I have no experience treating Leishmaniasis patients so cannot speak directly about this. However, I would refer you to previous comments about feeding chronic kidney disease dogs. The same generally speaking goes for supporting liver disease dogs. Let them eat small meals of appropriate good quality food.
Ground food is almost never indicated. For very weak animals, and that sometime arises toward the end of life, chopped meat can be fed. No need to provide ground bones. For short term feeding bone is not necessary. (Have addressed the ground bone issue in response to Roger's question. Also there's info in the books and at: http://secureshop.rawmeatybones.com/newsletter/view.epl?id=41
and
http://secureshop.rawmeatybones.com/newsletter/view.epl?id=20
Quote:
2.
In your books you state out that a little bit of vegetables is no problem. My dogs do get some vegetables (10%/15%) which I believe could have an extra function for anti-oxydants and mineral/vitamines besides the function as natural fiber source. What's your clear opinion about using vegetables into the diet?
For sure dogs and cats can and do eat vegetables in a domestic setting. In the wild they don't tend to eat much if anything in the way of vegetables except the chyme in the small bowel. Some chyme, I suspect, is of benefit, but not something that's been shown to be essential or even necessary.
Barfers and canned/kibble manufacturers make much of the supposed anti-oxydant, mineral, vitamin and fibre benefits. But they never present any scientific evidence and simply play on people's beliefs.
For a whacky statement on fruit and vege check out Billinghurt's quote from his 1988 presentation: 'Fruit and vegetables are an essential part of every dog's diet. An essential part, not an optional part. Meat is optional, fruit and vegetables are not.'
It's all a cruel hoax really. If people want to mimic what's in the stomach of herbivores then probably best to run the lawnmower up
Quote:
3.
Eleptical dogs in general:
is it safe to put those dogs on fasten days while they are on medicine? What about changing blood sugar levels etc. when feeding at different times and let fasten those dogs?
Best not to fast dogs that are sick. Best to make small meals available as and when they like. (Which still means supplying the food in one whole piece for them to chew on when they want.)
Quote:
Thank you so much for making time to answer those questions.
I am an enthousiastic raw feeder myself and I am very glad trying to feed like your vision. Thanks so much for coming to The Netherlands.
Thanks for your thanks. It's good to be here.
Keep up the good work,
Tom Lonsdale
Question 11
Dear Dr. Lonsdale,
I try to feed my cats and ferrets as natural as possible. They get mice, rats, quails, rabbit, duck, chicken, turkey, ... The cats only get occasionally somthing like horse meat or beef or lamb (about once or twice in a fortnight). I give them this for variety, but I'm not comfortable with giving it to them more often, since this isn't the kind of prey a cat would eat in the wild... The ferrets virtually never get "inappropriate" prey (-items).
I know there are lots of people feeding their cats lots of beef, and even green tripe. I never feed green tripe to my cats, since cats normally don't even eat the stomach of most of their prey ... And I believe in Australia lots of ferrets even get kangaroo and ox-tails?
How do you feel about this?
Don't get me wrong, I don't believe it's really "bad" when feeding these to cats and ferrets, but wouldn't it be more ideally to stick to their natural preys -whenever possible-?
Thanks in advance,
* Tom Lonsdale answered, 28 Jun, 2006:
Hi all,
For sure feeding whole carcasses is invariably best. It takes the guesswork out of feeding.
When feeding cats and ferrets it's relatively easy to feed small whole prey. For feeding large dogs the practicalities and the price often prohibit doing the very best.
The second best, raw meaty bones and a few table scraps works well. Occasional supplementation with a whole feathered chicken/fur on rabbit or fish is useful. It's the way responsible zoo keepers feed their large carnivora.
http://www.rawmeatybones.com/translations/Netherlands/Diet%20guide%20Ned.pdf
Of course there is plenty of latitude and in the hands of experienced, well informed people feeding kangaroo and oxtail are options (providing other smaller bony food is fed too).
It's when the meat is cut off the bone that problems occur.
Hence the contant mantra feed Raw Meaty Bones.
Best wishes,
Tom
Question 12
Dear Tom,
We had a discussion earlier after a good question from our appreciated member ****.
She said that she heard that lung has no nutritional value and to be honest, that's what we all believe. This is what we have been taught by raw feeders through the years. But **** said: I can hardly imagine that it doesn't contain anything, no fat, no protein?
Problem is that none of us knows the answer. ***** copied a part of the book from the author Ir. Nic. Dhont which stated the nutritional values of lungs.
What do you think about feeding lungs to your dogs? We know that there are a lot of dogs who do not wish to eat it, possibly due to its structure?
*Tom Lonsdale answered, 28 Jun, 2006:
Hi,
Thanks for the message.
Sorry, I don't have anything much to add to what you say.
Dogs, cats and ferrets tend not be keen on large pieces of lung. Mind you in small prey they don't seem to mind.
Yes there is less fat and easily digested protein in lung. In the US ox tracheas are often recommended as teeth cleaning aid. Tracheas are short on biologically available protein.
Maybe it's something to try. Do a trial on feeding lungs and occasional large raw meaty bone and see what behavioural and other things change. For those folks short of money and with big dogs to feed lung could be a good ingredient. Do you have a helpful vet who could help with monitoring and doing blood tests etc?
Good luck,
Tom
Question 13
Dear Tom,
We have held a poll here, asking what your dog doesn't like to eat or will not eat at all.
7 members answered: liver. We hear this often, especially from members who start raw feeding.
A lot of dogs don't eat lung and a few dogs refuse to eat day old chicks.
Do you have any idea why a lot of dogs refuse to eat these foods?
*Tom Lonsdale answered, 28 Jun, 2006:
Hi,
Thanks for the message. I like it. This is good basic observational research.
If you find someone qualified in drawing up questionaires and doing statistical analysis you can find out lots of basic stuff. There's even scope for online 'scientific' journals to deal with our information that can't get published in the junk pet food/vet journals.
Most dogs will eat most food stuffs if started as pups. It's a major reason I recommend starting pups on fish early.
Why animals have taste preferences often we don't know. Sometimes it's food aversion due to bad experience/taste. In RMB at the back there is an appendix showing how zoo animals go to considerable lengths to avoid eating certain organs.
It's all worth thinking about and researching. But it's not top priority either. Dogs and cats and ferrets do fine without certain items in the diet just as we do.
Best wishes,
Tom
Question 14
Based on http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/fish.php [this article] we decided not to feed fish to our cats.
The headlines of the article are: (we know you are very busy :wink: :)
Is fish a component of the cat's natural diet?
The most up to date science of species classification based on molecular genetics as well as morphological schemes indicates, that the domestic cat (felis silvestris catus - often only called felis catus) is one of four sub species of the species felis silvestris. Because domestication has largely influenced and grossly altered the domestic cat's food preference, to explore the truly natural diet of felis catus we should look to the diet of its ancestors: the European wildcat or forest cat (felis silvestris silvestris), the Asian steppe cat (felis silvestris ornata), and the African wildcat or tawny cat (felis silvestris lybica) [1.]
[u]When examining the diet of these three subspecies, none include fish.[/u] If we further expand our investigation to include all species of the genus felis, we come to the realisation that only one of its members - the jungle cat (felis chaus) - includes fish in its diet, although still hunts predominantly rodent prey [2.] but none of the others do, including the black-footed cat (felis nigripes), the sand cat (felis margarita), and Chinese mountain cat (felis bleti) [3.]
Therefore, would a diet consisting of whole, raw fish be adequate for cats?
...It seems that the idea of raw, whole fish is not entirely without problems. An enzyme found in all raw fish, called thiaminase, can destroy vitamin B-1 (Thiamin), leading to neurological disorders accompanied by a general physical wasting due to loss of appetite. [2] This enzyme can be destroyed by cooking the food, which however reduces overall nutritional density of the food itself as well.
Summary: care givers have to accept that no favour is done for the cat by feeding fish as a main staple.
Fish, no matter if whole, dressed, raw, cooked, or canned will cause nutritional deficiency of some kind, which in turn will eventually lead to serious disease.
If fish is to be included in the meal plan of the domestic cat, [b]one may only do so sparingly as treats, or to entice a sick cat to eat.[/b] Other than that, the story of fish and cats shall remain a fairytale.
(* a large percentage of domestic shorthair cats raise by Feline Future without previous contact to fish as food, will not eat fish when presented with it experimentally)
What do you think about that? Is there any harm in feeding fish to domesticated cats? Do you think it's natural to feed fish considering our domesticated cat's ancestors do not eat it?
Looking forward to your expert opinion.
*Tom Lonsdale answered, 28 Jun, 2006:
Hi ***** and all,
Thanks for the question.
Apart from the risks of thiaminase and too much polyunsaturated fats when feeding excess fish then I believe, whether it be for cats, dogs or ferrets, fish makes an excellent meal.
Think we need to be flexible and innovative when feeding domestic animals and not impose unnecessary hypothetical limitations on ourselves. The junk food people and vets are full of scaremongering tactics and there are others who want to pronounce on hypothetical fine point detail without regard for the overal framework.
We need to help ourselves and our pets in the face of folks with all sorts of odd agendas.
Good luck,
Tom
Question 15
Hi Dr Tom Lonsdale.
I have a older Tervueren Sheppard of 11 Years Old.
She always have been a stuborn and difficult eater.
We Tried to let her eating Raw Food. She Reacted on this with Not Eating and vomitting. So is it usefull to let this old lady eating raw?
Kind regards,
* Tom Lonsdale answered, 28 Jun, 2006:
Hi **** and all,
Thanks for the message.
I hope you will come to one of the talks where I'll show TV footage of a 12 year old Maltese having most of its teeth pulled out. The dog had liver disease, anaemia, bad coat,diseased skin, otitis, mammary tumour, heart murmur, foul mouth and Foul Mouth AIDS. It was 20% under weight.
Three months later, with very few teeth and on a diet of chicken wings it gained 20% increase in weight and was back to a semblance of normal.
So the moral of the tale is to change the diet however difficult or however late in the life of the dog. Very often it's necessary to get dentistry done too.
Roger and Marieke's translation of the Work Wonders chapter 4 should be a good help www.rawmeatybones.com . And with some mentoring by folks on this board I'm sure you will succeed -- and your dog be delighted you persisted.
Good luck,
Tom Lonsdale
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